Talk:Moderation

Quote deleted without explanation

I see the quote I added was deleted without explanation:

https://bahai9.com/index.php?title=Moderation&diff=15489&oldid=15487

Was this an accident?

Trident765 (talk) 21:44, 31 May 2021 (PDT)

No. I removed it because the quote is not about moderation. How should one follow the law of not consuming alcohol moderately? Obviously you either are or are not following the law. You can of course exercise tact and wisdom in the application of a law. If someone offered you a drink then the way in which you respond to the individual can vary a great deal. Drinking may be important to them, so you can perhaps find a way to turn down the drink without making that person feel judged or belittled. This is being wise and tactful, but it's unrelated to moderation. David (talk) 22:04, 31 May 2021 (PDT)

If next time you let me know you are deleting a quote, this gives me the opportunity to discuss it with you or move it to another page. I almost didn't notice that you deleted it because you didn't mention that you deleted it and you added lots of other content in the same edit.

Regarding your interpretation, I do not think it is a given that this is the only way that a rational person would interpret it. For example, if you read the source that I quoted it from, the Universal House of Justice uses this same quote to justify the progressive application of the laws in the Kitab i Aqdas. Trident765 (talk) 22:33, 31 May 2021 (PDT)

Hi guys... Two principles here, and both are covered in Bahai9:Site rules#Move more often than Remove:

1. Strongly prefer almost never removing anything (offered with good intentions of course), and yes, mentioning in the message where it is being moved if deemed necessary. This is a different approach from many wikis, but I want to save our users the frustrating experience I saw on Wikipedia with a lot of good work just being nullified because one little aspect might have been improved or a better place found for it. We don't want to let ugliness build up either of course--but that's thankfully pretty hard with our policy insisting on quotations. 'Abdu'l-Bahá example of consultation (between the apostles) was one where there was no disagreement. Generally, I hope we can find that grain of truth in why a quote is being offered and accommodate it--at least somewhere, and also, if remotely justifiable, in the "see also".

2. While we do want to avoid removing things and prefer moving at most, there are the other rules, "Be bold but courteous" (which may imply sometimes someone will reorganize something we didn't want organized) but more pertinently here, the albeit long-windedly titled, "In general, include only explicitly relevant quotes and provide adequate but not excessive context".

To avoid both unjustified interpretations and pages which are too hard to drill-down into material of current interest, the site policy is indeed to ensure it is explicitly related to the page at hand. If it is somewhat related, I encourage use of the "See also" section, which despite what could seem like just an afterthought, is like neuronal connections of the site actually. (Admittedly, the "see also" section should not be too crowded either, but if you can put a parenthetical explanation of how it is related when the connection is not so immediately obvious, it is more likely we'll want to keep it there.)

As to the specific quotation, I can see both sides here. There is some moderation involved in how to use one's devotedness. One should not become fanatical. Yes, true devotion does not become fanaticism, but if we were using language to only speak about God's attributes as He intends them, rather than also speaking about how people sometimes understand them, we'd have no need for "moderation" in the first place (e.g., true love, justice, mercy, etc., all have no need of moderation). This kind of thing comes up over and over again in disagreements about language because language tends to allow such multiple meanings, and if we're not careful, we can turn it into a false dichotomy.

I guess I'd agree it is pretty closely related to moderation therefore, but on the other hand, maybe putting it on a page about "cautiousness" or "tact" or "wisdom in application of God's laws" and adding it to this "moderation" page's "see also" would avoid the temptation to crowd too much in here, while also not failing to let people discover it, since it does tend to evoke the notion at least somewhat and/or at least for some people.

I might just mention that in linguistics, the prototype/exemplar theories of categorization use the example of the idea of a bird. While "penguin" and "ostrich" are technically birds, they are further out from the more core image we might have, e.g., of a robin. We want to give emphasis to the robin on the bird page, while having subsections or subpages leading to the more obscurely connected ones (or questionably connected ones like say proto-bird dinosaurs). And while one might be tempted to bring up platypus on the bird or "duck" page, because it has a duck bill, and indeed strengthening neurons helps one understand how everything is interrelated and makes life interesting, we don't want too much emphasis on this of course or it will get out of hand.

Btw, off topic, but funny we're discussing the rules on a page called "Moderation" (the other meaning). lol. And thanks for your contributions, guys. Have appreciated David's keeping the site clean and focused, and really welcome Trident's new inclusion of helpful content as well. Unity in diversity! WikiSysop (talk) 03:34, 1 June 2021 (PDT)

I think it is a good idea to create a "wisdom in application of God's laws" page and move the quote there. I will do this at some point if no one objects. Trident765 (talk) 09:09, 1 June 2021 (PDT)

Wonderful. Go for it. FWIW, you might want to also take a look at Sequence of teaching (the last couple of quotes there), this New believers section, the law page, Progressive application of laws, Introducing the laws to seekers and new believers. I don't mean they replace the need for such a page, but it might be helpful to have all of these in mind when finding a place, both in case we come to find it makes sense to merge some of these, and for the sake of adding "see also" links between them and any new page. By the way, as an aside, note that one can use "see also" not only for the whole page but as a nested heading under individual quotes (sometimes a particular quote seems to beg for more details because of something it mentions even if not relevant for the whole page). WikiSysop (talk) 14:47, 1 June 2021 (PDT)